"SteveLehto" (stevelehto)
08/27/2015 at 09:00 • Filed to: None
6
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"SteveLehto" (stevelehto)
08/27/2015 at 09:00 • Filed to: None | 6
| 43 |
Something’s wrong with your car and you’re going to take it in for warranty repairs. How complicated can that be? You’d be surprised. I’ve heard from consumers over the years about all the things that can go wrong - and can you tell you about it now to save you some trouble.
For such a simple notion, there really is a lot to think about. Many people don’t know what is covered by their warranty and simply leave it up to a service writer to tell them. Anything you should do before you leave your car at the dealer? How about what you should do when you pick up your car?
This time, the bulk of the advice is aimed not at how you can sue the bad guys but more toward how you can avoid getting hurt in the first place. Think of it as preventative medicine for car owners.
So, here it is in audio form:
!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!
And in video form.
And the pic at the top is of a couple of Richard Petty’s cars. I was looking for pics of something that looked like it needed a little bit of “work” and thought the car on the right qualified.
Follow me on Twitter: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!
Hear my podcast on iTunes: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!
Steve Lehto has been practicing law for 23 years, almost exclusively in consumer protection and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! He wrote !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .
This website may supply general information about the law but it is for informational purposes only. This does not create an attorney-client relationship and is not meant to constitute legal advice, so the good news is we’re not billing you by the hour for reading this. The bad news is that you shouldn’t act upon any of the information without consulting a qualified professional attorney who will, probably, bill you by the hour.
My X-type is too a real Jaguar
> SteveLehto
08/27/2015 at 09:15 |
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Wait, you mean we have to work and be observant to avoid rip offs? Where are we, Russia?
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SteveLehto
> My X-type is too a real Jaguar
08/27/2015 at 09:16 |
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The stuff I hear every day makes me think we have to be vigilant in everything we do. EVERYTHING!
Rico
> SteveLehto
08/27/2015 at 09:22 |
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It also pays to have a good relationship with your SA. I just got my car back today from the dealership and had mentioned that my wipers that I bought recently (non OEM but good brand - Valeo) were still streaking. They replaced them with OEM Mercedes wiper blades and it would’ve cost me $70+ tax but my SA warrantied my non-OEM wipers so that I wouldn’t be charged!
I bought him a 24 pack of Stella for hooking me up and got another case for the guy who worked on my car (completely separate issue with my parking brake shoe).Take care of your Service Advisors everyone. Beer or liquor makes their day.
1111111111111111111111
> SteveLehto
08/27/2015 at 09:23 |
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Steve - The podcast is great. I pick up all kinds of useful things. Can you recommend any other legal podcasts in other areas of law that are entertaining?
DipodomysDeserti
> SteveLehto
08/27/2015 at 09:25 |
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I’ve been trying to get my Abarth repaired correctly under warranty for over year. The front end makes all sorts of noise when going over bumps. It started with only 6k miles on the odo, and FIAT even issued an FSB regarding the issue. I’ve taken it to two different dealerships and both places told me it was normal despite the TSB. I finally got one place to replace the affected parts, but I think they put it back together wrong and now the noise is even louder. I swear to god these Chrysler shops are like Billy Bob’s Garage. You go into the service department, and the place is filled with camouflage and Don’tShootMe Orange Dodge Ram hats. I would hate to have to take an Alfa to one of these places.
ttyymmnn
> Rico
08/27/2015 at 09:38 |
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Or cookies.
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My X-type is too a real Jaguar
> SteveLehto
08/27/2015 at 09:57 |
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Oh I agree however working in the tech support industry I have learned personal responsibility is a thing of the past
Urambo Tauro
> SteveLehto
08/27/2015 at 10:01 |
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I like the idea of photographing the odometer.
It’s a good idea to do this as soon as you pull up, rather than make a trip back to the car after the write-up. Reason being, people at shops can get overly defensive if they see you going out of your way to protect yourself. You can protect yourself without offending anyone, and avoid a situation like yesterday’s console change story .
Segador
> SteveLehto
08/27/2015 at 10:10 |
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*Quickly prints up SEGADOR, ESQUIRE CAR ATTORNEY business cards*
The Undecider
> SteveLehto
08/27/2015 at 10:13 |
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Good stuff here! I really enjoy these podcasts.
A problem I had in the past with various vehicles had been taking the vehicle in for a repair and the dealer advising there was nothing wrong. The typical line they feed you is “vehicle performs to manufacturer’s specifications.”
I’m certain you’ve had clients who have complained about this and it seems like a decent ploy for a dealership or manufacturer to avoid potential lemon law action if they simply refuse to acknowledge a problem exists. This is particularly problematic when the issue involves something with the drivetrain, fuel system, or anything controlled by a computer. The default response seems to be that if no check engine light is on or any codes stored in the computer, nothing is wrong.
I handle property insurance subrogation, so a lot of my work is focused on product defects. While not typically automotive related, it gives a lot of insight into corporate risk management. Saying a product performs as designed is completely meaningless when there is a design defect. We do occasionally have claims where a customer’s house burns down due to car fires. For a while, we had a regular stream of losses caused by a certain Detroit suburb - based manufacturer who’s trucks and SUVs had problems with speed control deactivation switches, but I digress.
If you could do a podcast about disputed defects that prevent having repairs completed, that would be interesting to hear ways to overcome those situations. Thanks.
SARAH5588
> DipodomysDeserti
08/27/2015 at 10:13 |
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The EXACT reason I don’t have a 4c in my garage, I also have an abarth. Tons of issues, and the dealers are clueless. Chrysler dealers are terrible.
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SteveLehto
> The Undecider
08/27/2015 at 10:37 |
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Yes, that is a common problem. I’ll address that soon.
Thanks.
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SteveLehto
> 1111111111111111111111
08/27/2015 at 10:38 |
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I hate to admit it but I don’t listen to any legal podcasts. The other ones I listen to are about cars and broadcasting.
r1teway
> SteveLehto
08/27/2015 at 10:41 |
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Also perhaps, “We don’t have any other reports/documentation that mentions this issue...”?
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1111111111111111111111
> SteveLehto
08/27/2015 at 10:49 |
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Fair enough!
Dolby109
> SteveLehto
08/27/2015 at 11:04 |
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The only weird thing I ever had happen was I was getting a clunking on hard accel, braking, turning, or bumps. I thought something on the front subframe was loose. I took it in and they had the car a week, and said they couldn't find anything wrong but when I got it back the car was tight and fixed. I'm still not sure if they wouldn't admit to what they fixed or if they just didn't realize they fixed it.
Umrguy42: Add $5 for shipping and handling
> SteveLehto
08/27/2015 at 11:15 |
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Steve, something to note/watch out for on your “make sure they write it up” - I ran into this with my new van last year, it seemingly popped out of gear on my wife (although we can’t be certain that she didn’t somehow bump the gear selector, which is on the driver’s side of the center console), so I took it in to have them look. I was giving them a whole bunch of details (probably more than necessary), but apparently their computer program to do the write-ups only has so many allowed characters.
So, you may have to pare down, but definitely make sure they get the essential facts/description.
(And for those interested, they couldn’t find anything, not surprisingly, and it hasn’t happened since, so again, could be driver error. Nobody was hurt/no accidents, thankfully. And, it’s at least recorded in their system, so if it does happen again and we’re not so lucky, at least there’s a record somewhere that the problem was seen.)
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DipodomysDeserti
> SARAH5588
08/27/2015 at 11:43 |
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The only problem I’ve had on mine is the front end noise., but I’m only at 16k miles on a ‘13 model. What’s gone wrong with yours? Chrysler dealers really are shit. It’s night and day between the Chrysler dealer and the BMW dealer I take my wife’s car to. For one I get free loaner cars at the BMW dealer even though I bought my car used from them. I would have a 4c except I want my light, quick but not-that-fast Italian sports cars to have manual transmissions.
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SuzukiGuy
> SteveLehto
08/27/2015 at 12:21 |
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Hyundai Canada gives zero shits about your warranty, customer service, about their BS option lists(get a manual, get half the options from the package but get charged full pop). Call them up, have a CSR run you around, ask to speak to their supervisor, get told no, they speak for Hyundai Canada, the superiors will give you the same answer, and it’s their choice to let you speak to one at all.
TSB in the states for the cars being built wrong and eating tires, in Canada what TSB, we’ll happily charge you for an alignment every 3 to 6 months.
Oh and the engine that is ticking, clacking, losing power when hot, blowing smoke, losing quarts of oil, putting oil film in the reservoir and having the fuel economy drop horribly from 60,000km... The CSR told me that it was good news the warranty was up because now I can pay for the engine to be replaced... I spent 40,000km trying to get it fixed under warranty. So I’m left with a car I can sell if I get kicked in the nuts on the price or I can pay many thousands now to get it fixed.
I’ll never buy or let a friend buy a Hyundai for as long as I live.
Oh and the dealers are all horrible to deal with, starting with the lies about cruise, fog lights, heated seats, etc. that I paid for, told them I wanted and the skeezy prick of a salesman said get this to get those, then said no backsies, to the other dealers who either couldn’t hear or see the problems, or would blame everything, including saying that’s just how they are supposed to sound these engines really like to sludge, even with full synthetic and proper maintenance. Oh and the corners those idiots cut, so stuff would fail and be the customers fault...
Never a f-cking again...
Randall Ward
> Rico
08/27/2015 at 12:24 |
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As an Ex-Service Writer I have to say you are doing God’s Work.
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SARAH5588
> DipodomysDeserti
08/27/2015 at 12:27 |
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Mine is a 2012, it has roughly 15k miles? Starting early on under 5k miles it had a TOB issue, dealer kept messing up my appointment, so I would take off work and go in and they would say they over booked, happened twice! Decided I’m driving on it till it explodes, so they can come and tow it away. I’ve also had front end issues, alignment going out of spec, one my second set of tires already because of that. Side skirts are peeling off, and every black trim on my car is sun faded. Bluetooth almost never connects, and it will randomly want to misfire on startup, turn the key off and on and it’s fxed. That happens only once in a blue moon. All that fun in under 15k miles!
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Rico
> Randall Ward
08/27/2015 at 13:03 |
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Thanks, business relationships are important to me. If I like you and you’ve always done good by me then I will take care of you. I bought the beer before I even went to get my car and before he told me he was warrantying something that quite frankly is not supposed to be warrantied. He’ll be getting a lot more beer from me after that one.
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Randall Ward
> Rico
08/27/2015 at 13:12 |
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Yea it’s rough for an SA sometimes. I made it a point to be honest and accommodating to the best of my ability with my customers. I’d sell em what they needed to be on the road safely and not what my Techs “wanted” for their pay check. Sure it lead to a few fights with my team but when they saw these customers come in and start dropping lots of cash because they trusted me and in turn them(techs) it was all good.
TL;DR - It’s a two way street between SA and customer. If both sides treat each other right it can be mutually beneficial for both parties.
e holder
> SuzukiGuy
08/27/2015 at 13:15 |
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So, your personal experience at one dealer means the entire corporation “gives zero shits?”
BTW - why do you stop at the CSR? Can’t you see that’s probably your main problem?
jamisparker
> SuzukiGuy
08/27/2015 at 13:52 |
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What model was that? Recent?
Death By Cornbread
> DipodomysDeserti
08/27/2015 at 14:50 |
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My Abarth has been in and out of the shop for warranty work since I bought it in March. It’s spent about seven weeks there total. It’s currently been there for three weeks and counting.
35% of my ownership has seen this car sitting in the shop. It really hits me how absurd that is when I type it out here.
Luckily my SA has been very helpful and they’re working to address all of my complaints. I had noise coming from the rear and even I sometimes wondered if it was a normal noise (it wasn’t) and they worked to find it. I’ve got a new rear subframe. There is still a slight chirping but it’s much less. I’ll pick my battles.
What state are you in? I’d highly recommend my dealer despite not recommending this car.
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Death By Cornbread
> SteveLehto
08/27/2015 at 14:52 |
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I have a question for you that is somewhat related:
Can you lemon law a warrantied car if you aren’t the first owner?
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SteveLehto
> Death By Cornbread
08/27/2015 at 14:58 |
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Often times, yes. The law only requires that the car be “new” but “new” is often defined as a car with a manufacturer’s warranty. So then you look at the time frames. If you had a car that was “new” (but used) and you had a substantial defect that was not repaired within the right time frames - it would be a lemon.
But those time frames run from delivery to the first owner. So you need to have 4 repair attempts (for example, in MICH) and the first within the first year from the delivery to the first owner and so on. This could work out, for example, if you bought a used car that was traded in after the first owner only had it six months.
So, yes it is possible. But very improbable.
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Death By Cornbread
> SteveLehto
08/27/2015 at 15:04 |
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Gotcha. I figured it would be a difficult endeavor.
I bought a 2012 vehicle in March 2015, private party, that still has a good bit of manufacturer warranty left.
It’s been in the shop for 7 weeks (combined) of my ownership. They’ve attempted to fix one of the issues five different ways, thus far. 35% of the time I’ve owned it (or so) it has been in the shop. It’s there right now. If it comes back and still isn’t resolved I wasn’t sure if that was a route I could explore. The dealership, and even corporate, has been very helpful, but the problem is just not getting solved.
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SteveLehto
> Death By Cornbread
08/27/2015 at 15:07 |
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What state are you in? Sometimes, those are worth pursuing under a simple breach of warranty theory, even without the lemon law.
bryan40oop
> DipodomysDeserti
08/27/2015 at 15:26 |
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Diagnosing a “noise” like that is harder than you think. Even with chassis ears. If you cannot duplicate it on a lift, you cannot replace the part under warranty.
You can’t just throw parts at it either. All parts are sent back to the manufacturer, many are inspected. If they check out ok.... bad time.
Try calling the local service rep for your manufacturer. Most likely they’ll send a field engineer down to take a look at it to further diagnose and repair.
Don’t knock the techs, its harder to diagnose an inconvenient noise than almost anything else.
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Death By Cornbread
> SteveLehto
08/27/2015 at 15:33 |
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Connecticut - land of the taxed, home of mediocre minor league sports teams.
MotoArigato
> ttyymmnn
08/27/2015 at 19:35 |
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Yup, I bring in a pallet of fresh made, high end pastries to my mechanics about 2-3x a year. Costs about $50 a pop but the goodwill is immeasurable and the whole shop is happy.
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MotoArigato
> SARAH5588
08/27/2015 at 19:36 |
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Chrysler dealers are what turned me off to their products as a whole even tho there are a few vehicles (mainly Dodge) I’d like to own again, but never will just to preserve my sanity.
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DipodomysDeserti
> bryan40oop
08/27/2015 at 19:56 |
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Except when my cars are under warranty, I do all my own work, so I fully understand how hard it can be to diagnose front end noise. However, FIAT did the diagnosis for me and put out a TSB saying if a car’s front suspension is knocking over bumps to install new jounce bumpers. When I first brought my car in the service rep told me no such TSB existed. I had to look it up on my phone and show them (apparently they don’t have the internet yet). They took it in and did the install, but the front end came back louder than ever (I also drive and maintain a ‘63 Corvair and a ‘66 GMC longbed, so I’m not some asshole expecting a FIAT to ride like a Cadillac,). Also, this car has a lot of cabin noise on account of the paper thin sheet metal and straight pipes, so I know that if I’m hearing the suspension knock/grind at 6k miles, something is up.
A few weeks later I started researching the issue as I was just going to fix it myself, and I found lot of people had part of their front suspension reinstalled wrong when they had the jounce bumps replaced (not sure which part, but I think it was the part of the top hats which have a bearing in them). I ended up taking the car back in in an attempt to have them look at the struts, but they wouldn’t do it, as they said the repair was already done, and that’s just the sound the front end makes (which I would totally believe on this cheap car, except that other people have remedied the problem after the Chrysler techs did the install wrong). I bought this car for nothing as a cheap little fun car, and am way too busy to dick around with dealership people trying to get them to fix something that they’ve already try to do twice. This is the reason I learned to work on my own cars and bought my own tools. I’m probably just going to replace the parts myself once I’m done rebuilding the suspension on my truck.
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bryan40oop
> DipodomysDeserti
08/27/2015 at 20:38 |
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Just because there is a TSB it doesn’t mean that is the cause of your issue. And it’s extremely possible the TSB or repair instructions were incorrect. Seen it many times.
“I ended up taking the car back in in an attempt to have them look at the struts, but they wouldn’t do it, as they said the repair was already done, and that’s just the sound the front end makes “
Whoa, never go back there. Then again I’m sure fiat dealers are sparse where you live. But they’re not even attempting to fix it from the sound of things.
No money in it, techs don’t want to look at it. Manufacturers pay fuck all nothing for diag anyways. But it’s almost impossible to find someone who isn’t hourly to want to diagnose a noise, because it can be a rabbit chase, they don’t get paid well for it, so the customer gets boned.
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SuzukiGuy
> jamisparker
08/27/2015 at 21:55 |
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2011 Accent, so very recent.
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SuzukiGuy
> e holder
08/27/2015 at 22:07 |
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I tried multiple dealers, and I tried multiple ways of getting past that Customer Service Rep. Hyundai Canada will not speak with you once you have a file, all communication has to go through that rep.
So yes, I tried every path available, to try and get a known defect dealt with within the terms of the warranty and the Company and it’s dealer network had no intention in honouring that warranty. The one good service manager quit because he couldn’t handle screwing customers.
My experiences aren’t alone, and I shouldn’t have to go to multiple dealers, and get stonewalled by the front end of the company, and end up with the choice of spending more than the car is worth to get a lawyer to make that company follow through with its warranty.
So guess what, Hyundai Canada could have replaced the engine but instead they chose to have me black list them and to cost them far more than what that engine ever would have.
If my story can cause even a few people to go elsewhere, then my time telling it is well spent. :-)
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DipodomysDeserti
> bryan40oop
08/27/2015 at 22:37 |
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The TSB literally says “ if the front end clunks over bumps in cold weather, replace the jounce bumps” then it gives a new part number. Do a google search and it comes up. The TSB isn’t in question and it’s a known issue. The rep was just being lazy and didn’t want to look it up, and I’m not the only person who had issues after the jounce bump replacement.
I live in a major city and there are I believe four Chrysler dealerships which all service FIATs. This dealership is supposed to be the best as they also sell Alfas now. No way am I going to one of the smaller ones. I also don’t have time to wait for Chysler techs to dick around with this car. FCA is a clusterfuck as far as dealerships go. It doesn’t bother me too much as this was a cheap ass car that Inbought for fun. Keep in mind I’ve owned around 15 cars and I currently own six so this isn’t my first rodeo. I had a 2011 BMW 335d that received about $10k in warranty work. The BMW dealership was fantastic with zero hassle.
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bryan40oop
> DipodomysDeserti
08/27/2015 at 23:36 |
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“The TSB literally says “ if the front end clunks over bumps in cold weather, replace the jounce bumps” then it gives a new part number.”
That doesn’t mean this TSB will fix your problem. Your car may not be affected.
“ This dealership is supposed to be the best as they also sell Alfas now. No way am I going to one of the smaller ones. I also don’t have time to wait for Chysler techs to dick around with this car. “
Shit situation, but they’re obviously not interested in fixing it. And if you refuse to take it elsewhere.... well then..... that’s on you.
“Keep in mind I’ve owned around 15 cars and I currently own six so this isn’t my first rodeo. I had a 2011 BMW 335d that received about $10k in warranty work. The BMW dealership was fantastic with zero hassle.”
k.....
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DipodomysDeserti
> bryan40oop
08/27/2015 at 23:40 |
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It is on me now, because the place I bought it from didn't want to deal with it. Which I'm not surprised by. To be honest, I don't trust a place with a showroom filled with mossy oak printed apparel. It was the Cabelas of service departments.
Chain-Chomp2
> Death By Cornbread
08/29/2015 at 20:17 |
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Arbath? I must be out of touch, never heard of one. I Googleed, Fiat - Fix It Again Tony. Anyone over 45 could’ve told you this.
SilverBRADo totaled his beigeslushboxmatrix
> ttyymmnn
09/14/2015 at 15:30 |
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Brownies - that way grease stains aren’t visible after they pick them up - Source: Car Talk.